A post from my blog I thought you all would find interesting:
Recently a friend and I were having a conversation about climbers and the general selfishness and lack of respect that seems to be so prevalent in the climbing community today. We got on the topic after reading an article in a recent issue of Climbing magazine about a wall at the Red River Gorge that was recently closed because climber’s couldn’t follow the rules. The landowners ran a bed and breakfast type operation, with guiding at the cliffs, and set a few simple rules to keep guest/climber interactions good for both parties: keep dogs on a leash, no swearing, please use the outhouse. So simple a five year old could follow them, but apparently, not a bunch of climbers.
Read the rest of the post here.
Bumluck says:
Same crap years ago. Why you can't climb at Skytop at the Gunks since 10-`15 years ago.
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mikitta says:
It's the same ol' same ol'. A few people refuse to take responsibility for their actions to police themselves and that results in all of us getting policed in a way that restricts our good time. It's pretty sad.
God Bless,
mik
Vegas says:
I agree with you on a few things. I'd say about 95% of climbers respect the rules. They try to leave as little impact as possible, respect other climbers, and respect the land owners. But I've run into climbers that are just jerks. Some of them think that because they can climb 5.13s that they above the rules. Or some of them just don't care about anything but themselves. When I was at the New, I met some awesome climbers from all over the country. But, there were a few that made me just hate climbers. One guy let his dog shake off all over my gear and pack after it went for a swim in the lake, and didn't bother to apologize or do anything about it. Left mud all over my pack, rope, and draws. A buddy of mine was going climbing when he found that someone had taken a number 2, right in the middle of the approach trail. Even left the toilet paper for other climbers to find. Like you said, these rules aren't difficult. Just common sense and courtsey. Take out what you take in. Leave no trace. Treat other climbers (and their gear) the way you want to be treated.
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captain static says:
This remains a serious issue for us in Red River Gorge. Even after the Torrent closure continuing dog problems at Muir Valley have caused the owner to issue an edict that will ban dogs after the end of this year! In his blog, choss master proffers that maybee the Access Fund should put more of a focus on climber education. I know that the AF in the past and presently has made several efforts in this regard. In discussing this issue the RRGCC has seen that climber education needs to get down to the individual grassroots level. We look at it this way, if you saw someone engaged in an unsafe climbing practice (i.e. improper belay, back clipping, etc.) you should politely approach that person with advice to correct the situation. In the same manner, if you see someone doing something that could jeopardize access, you should politely approach them and explain to them the problem with what they are doing.
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woodchuck07 says:
Vegas I agree with you 100% AND not to stir up issues, but I must say that as a respectful climber of many many years, I'm astounded and ashamed to see how the 'new generation', the boulder pad, sporty set is so much seen as that part of the problem. NOT the old trads, thats' for sure. I may not understand the attraction to 6 guys standing around doing nothing while one guy hugs a rock 9 ft. high above a pile of pads, but please clean up after your group and your collection of dogs too! Dogs and wilderness do not mix, so enjoy them elsewhere, like at home or a dog park in the city. NOT on the bluffs. Sorry, but I feel strongly about both issues when it comes to 'access denied' being the result.
Bumluck says:
WC agree with you about the dogs. As I said in another thread, I recall climbing next to some guys with a dog, which immediately began chewing up their rope slack as soon as they were out of sight up the cliff.
As to the new generation...I think there were enough asshole trad climbers to get us banned from a variety of places back in the day. Skytop at the Gunks comes to mind.
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StellarTemple says:
"Dogs and wilderness dont mix?" - Yeah, I mean, it's not like dogs are originally from the wilderness or anything. - *Sarcasm*. If that is truly how you feel than I pity you for your shortsightedness and better than thou approach to other animals. Key word being 'other'. What gives you the right to be out in nature anymore than a dog? The wlderness is no place for crotchety old men, better leave them in the park to play chess or in the comfort of a retirement home.
Also, that statement about it not being the old trad folks leaving junk around, I think you need to rethink that statement. It is a blanket generalization to say that access to locations is being closed down primarily because of the effects of boulderers on the ecosystem/ignorning the rules. I was just watching the video the other day of Dean Potter soloing the Nose of El Cap, and sure enough, along the way people are leaving their trash and junk, in the middle of the climb. I'm sure it was the boulderers, not the trad guys.
Gimme a break with the holier than though sentiments and realize that the problem cant be solved with such closeminded and shortviewed perspectives of the problem.
Here's the video if you're interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwV5t7IgCHI
mikitta says:
Stellar Temple, I think WC made a good point about PETS being at the crag. I've only known of one dog in 20 years of climbing that I would consider well behaved at the crag. For the most part, once the owner is out of sight, that animal becomes uncontrolled. It is an unsafe situation for both the animal and any humans it comes in contact with.
In addition, that animal becomes a nuisance when it impacts the gear of other climbers. I've heard of dogs taking a leak on someone else's pack, chewing ropes and even threatening other hikers and climbers for what it considers a violation of it's territory.
If you must take your animal into the wilderness, don't assume because it is well behaved when you are right there, it will be well behaved once you are out of sight. Responsible pet ownership demands that you be in control of the animal at all times, and if you cannot be in control of your animal (because you are climbing) then your animal needs to stay at home.
As for litter - that has been an ongoing problem for many decades. Would that we all would follow the rules of Leave No Trace. I don't think we can definitively leave the blame on any one's door step. Trads, Sporties, Alpinists, Boulderers - we are all guilty of leaving garbage that should have been packed out. Instead of starting an internet debate, perhaps we can each take a cue from this article and increase our own personal responsibility in the outback and pick up trash we see in the area we are at.
In the mean time, a continued push to educate people about the negative effects of littering is a necessity.
God Bless,
mik
Ben Strohmeier says:
ive known just as many people who misbehave at a crag as ive known dogs
mikitta says:
Ben, the difference is that people can be reasoned with most of the time. An animal cannot be. A dog either is well trained and under supervision or it is not. It does not have it's higher sense of common decency to guide it's actions as people do.
Certainly there are people who are poorly behaved, but you can't really call Animal Control on them to remove them - as much as we would all like to sometimes. And I would be really surprised to learn that some had taken to gnawing on ropes or peeing on other people's gear or growling and snarling with bared teeth at passers by. Not to mention disgusted LOL.
It doesn't surprise me that a dog would do this - bored dogs chew stuff and all dogs will mark their territory with urin sprays. All dogs will also establish a chain of dominance, with their owner and other humans hopefully being the top of their dominance order and them being below that order. Unfortunately, a very dominant animal will not necessarily accept strangers (read other people at the crag) as above them in the dominance order and that leads to dangerous situations wherein the animal could well be confiscated and destroyed as a result of threats or injuries to other people.
What I am getting at is that animals are, well, animals. They do everything based on instinct. Human beings, if they misbehave, do so from capriciousness, greed and self centeredness. Dogs really don't belong at the crag where they are not being supervised because their owner is climbing. If you want to go out and hike with your dog - do so. Stay in control of your animal and ensure it's good behavior. But if you are going to be climbing, leave fido at home. You AND he will be happier in the long run.
God Bless,
mik
woodchuck07 says:
I agree that many dog/pet owners love their animals but are blind to the problems that others must face. An outdoor event for hikers,dogs, bikes, whatever, may be just perfect for you and your dog but I've not seen climbing be that activity. Once on the climb, your dog can become a nuisance to all who pass, even though from your point of view, it's nothing of an issue since YOU know your dog. I'm all for enjoying the outdoors somewhere with the dog, but not on the often crowded and limited space of a climbers cliff base trail.
Ben Strohmeier says:
id also like to point out that in the past every part of climbign has had a "bad ethics" phase by todays standards including sport climbers drilling and trad climber literally destroying cracks with pins so dont put trad climbers above any kind of destruction
mikitta says:
Crag destruction issues are separate from litter issues, which is what the OP discussed. All varieties of climbers are implicit in this problem - Alpanists to Boulderers and everyone in between. The thing is, it's a relatively small number of climbing enthusiasts who leave their trash, but the consequences of their irresponsibility impact ALL of us.
I was always taught to pack it out - even if it wasn't mine. To keep the base of the cliffs as litter free as I could. It doesn't seem fair, especially when a bit of that litter comes from non climbers who come out to fart around. But we want our climbing areas to remain accessible to us, so we do what we can to keep it clean :)
Bumluck says:
Yes...Let's not get into the whole bolting, not bolting, chipping, not chipping, etc., etc, etc., thing here. We are talking about dogs - who can be a real nuisance to other climbers, and unbeknownst to themselves, to owners as well; and,have not evolved to the point that they have a need to climb extremely difficult rock faces for no apparent reason - and deadbeats who trash the cliffs and nature in general, also for no apparent reason.
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vaelec says:
All of this a sterling argument for packing out as much as you can, not as much as you brought. Went out to Great Falls last weekend and when I started walking around the base picking up trash (mainly fishing gear, not cliff bar wrappers and tape) I noticed other people in my group start to do the same. No one said anything, it was an obvious thing to do. Lead by example. The people I climbed with, all of whom I had met that day, felt good when the tourists saw us picking up cigarette butts, red bull cans, and McDonald's cups from the trail. It's a good thing I didn't see any dog poo, I already have enough... stuff in my pack :)
Pete
StellarTemple says:
You guys have valid points about dogs being destructive to your property. Though the logical solution would be to have the dogs tethered to a tree where it can play in it's own area far enough away so as not to pee or chew on any of your things. Though it seems as if this still wouldnt make some of you guys happy.
badash says:
its all about karma, guys. It'll come to them. If one mistreats nature it will get them back someday, and we all know it. Props to everyone who follows rules, and keep it up. Keep it going, too - if you see someone doing something wrong TALK TO THEM!
I personally pick up trash and cig butts at the crags because it makes me feel good that I can help out the crags that offer me so much. So to all of you who do the same as me i applaud. Anyone who doesnt follow the few rules that there are, shame on you for ruining it for everyone else. LEAVE NO TRACE guys! and keep it REAL!
woodchuck07 says:
I think karma is part of it. Those who don't respect the rock, the environment; well they seem to take this climbing thing as a passing novelty. Many don't last out there season after season. They get bored easily and move on to another activity thank goodness.
Jimn72 says:
I am seriously trying to remember the last time I saw a trad climber banging in pitons and I just remembered, never. Now maybe I'm not hanging out with the right crowd but I've been trad climbing since 1997 and I have never seen any one aid climbing using pitons and pins.
It shouldn't read "climbers have no respect", it should read "some people have no respect".
woodchuck07 says:
I've been traddin' since 77' and we were proud to use nuts, early cams, anything besides a pin. New tech, pride in ' clean climbing', all that was important back then. And most of all, very limited use of bolts was the rule. It was a point of pride, to climb what you could manage on lead, or Leave It Clean for the next guy.
Bumluck says:
Ditto Woodchuck, though if there was a pin there already, you bet your ass I clipped it.
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woodchuck07 says:
yeah, I've seen old rusty ones that have been in place for 40+ years that are a classic clip and part of some routes. Makes you appreciate the old masters as you pass these pieces of history by.
Bumluck says:
Definately, stuff placed by Wiessner, Kraus, et al.
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woodchuck07 says:
or in my location, the Stettners, Gill, Chicago Mountaineers, Iowa Mountaineers, Pete Cleveland, Wisconsin Hoofers, US Army, etc.
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